Improving Barry

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•  Why we fear saturated fat (and why we shouldn't)
•  Vegetable and seed oils
•  The Mediterranean diet
•  Positive changes in the field of nutrition science and health
•  And more…

• Her website: https://ninateicholz.com/
• On Twitter: https://twitter.com/bigfatsurprise
• Nutrition Coalition: https://www.nutritioncoalition.us/
• Nina's SubStack: https://unsettledscience.substack.com/
• Nina's book "The Big Fat Surprise":  https://www.amazon.com/Big-Fat-Surprise-Butter-Healthy/dp/1451624433/

[00:00:10] Unknown:

Hi. And welcome to another episode of the improving Barry podcast where I, Barry, interview experts in health and wellness.   And this week, I had the opportunity to sit down with Nina Teicholz,   who is a science journalist and the author of the book, The Big Fat Surprise,   which you might know. It's a very well known book,   and it's been sold all around the world for over 9 years now.   We talk about why we are so scared of saturated fat and why that is actually not bad for you.   We also talk about the forces that influence our dietary guidelines,   and we end on a positive note.  

If you haven't read The Big Fat Surprise yet, I would encourage you to do so. You can also listen to it on Audible if that's easier for you. I will link to all of those things in the show notes.   Also, you can find the full transcript at improvingberry.com.   And now without further ado, here is Nina.   But maybe indeed we can start with,   you know, why do we think or why do we get,   told that that fat and especially saturated fat is so bad? Why why is that?  

[00:01:28] Unknown:

Well, this   was the subject of my book,   and it just sent me down on a rabbit hole of nearly 10 years of research,   that   consumed me to try to understand   What was the story on fat you know, good fat, bad fat, nonfat?   All of this has obsessed us and been the focus of all of our dietary recommendations.   So I read thousands of studies. As a journalist, I came to it really with an open mind. Actually, I was a vegetarian when I started, so I Mhmm. And I didn't eat any butter. And I and I tried to make everything low fat because that's what I had been told growing up. And when I emerged   a decade later, I was   eating butter and,   and no longer fearing   Red meat, which I had stayed away from for more than 25 years. And   the story of how we came to believe that Fat is bad for us, and especially saturated fat is   really quite fascinating.  

And it goes back to   The 19 fifties in America. I'm sorry to say that we've exported this to your country and all the countries around the world. But it starts in the 19 fifties in America where there's a rising tide, fast rising tide of heart disease. Then it has become Come from pretty much out of nowhere,   very rare in the early 1900 to become the   number one killer disease,   And everybody was in a panic. In   1955, our president, president Eisenhower, has a heart attack.   The whole nation is focused on this event.   He's out of office. He he's not going to work. That's the headlines in all the newspapers.  

And there's a real question about what causes heart disease. People didn't know.   They thought it could be the rising   tide of the amount of auto exhaust due to more automobiles in the road. They thought it could be Vitamin deficiency,   these were all theories that were   suggested.   They thought it could be   the type a personality. I don't know if you ever heard of that, but it's where you go around screaming at people all day long, and then you just peel over from stress.   But into this vacuum of understanding   stepped   1   man,   whose name is Ancel Keys, who's a professor of physiology at the University of Minnesota,   and his idea   was that it was   fat.  

And he so, originally, it was total fat. Like, the just eating a lot of fat was what caused heart disease. And then he shifted to focus specifically on saturated fat, so the kind of fat that is found more commonly   in meat and dairy. Although all foods contain fat,   some combination of different fatty acids. So,   But his theory, which was called the diet heart hypothesis,   it postulated   that saturated fat would raise the cholesterol in your blood, so your serum cholesterol,   and that would build up into fatty plaques on your arteries and   clog your arteries and give you a heart attack. It would be like pouring hot oil down a cold   stovepipe,   And it would   just clog up and give you a heart attack. So this was just a theory, but   there was given the lack of information that existed   And given the fact that he was   a very aggressive and forceful personality,   he could argue anyone to the death According to his friends, he would not relent or give up in an argument.  

He was able to get his idea   adopted by   The most important public institution on heart disease at the time, which was the American Heart Association,   and the 1st recommendation anywhere in the world   To restrict saturated fat and replace it with polyunsaturated   vegetable oils   came out of the American Heart Association in 1961.   That is the 1st public health recommendation   telling people anywhere in the world   that we need to cut back on meat and dairy to avoid heart   And that really was a tiny little acorn of an idea that grew into the giant   Establishment,   you know, the the dogma that we have today,   that, you know, we all that we all consider to be just the The given truth about saturated fat and cholesterol and heart disease.  

Yeah.   Yeah. So That's where it comes from.  

[00:06:05] Unknown:

Now this story has been told, many times, also on this podcast, about console keys.   And, You know, in your book, you describe very eloquently   that,   his research, and he's he's done lots of research there.   That that's Terribly flawed as well, where he then tries to show that this hypothesis   is actually correct.   And then, you know, he ties his,   personal,   status and,   everything that he is Basically, to this hypothesis,   and so it cannot fail, right, because of that.   But as you just stated,   since 1950,   heart disease was on the rise. Right? And only from   1961,   there was the,   advice to cut back on that and then to replace that with,   with polyunsaturated   fats. So,   What's the difference there? So, like, why was it then already,   rising in 1950,   the heart disease?  

Couldn't it actually have been saturated fat? Right?  

[00:07:11] Unknown:

Well so that's very interesting question.   If you look so heart disease started rising more rapidly in the 19 twenties, actually, that's when we see an uptick.   And there are questions about whether the diagnostic criteria changed or but but, anyway, but it really was   not identified as a problem   at all in the in the very early part of 19th the 20th century. So   We see it rising.   What is perfectly   in parallel   rising with heart disease at the beginning in the early Those early   1900 was vegetable oils. Vegetable oils were introduced into the food supply   In 1911, in the form of something called Crisco, which was you probably have something. It's a replacement of lard. Right? Instead of lard, which comes from pigs,   They use this hardened vegetable oil called Crisco.  

After that came regular vegetable oils, but that shows   I think going in this direction, a very fast rise that is in perfect   perfectly parallels the rise in heart disease. What is going the other way down is the consumption of saturated fats. You see it plummeting   because   Vegetable oils replace   the hardened vegetable oils replace lard and butter.   And and then, you know, Gradually,   animal fats, which were always more expensive, they just declined.   And that declining consumption Saturated fat has continued until today in almost all countries because we were told to stay away from it. So   Even in the very beginning when Ancel Keys came out with his hypothesis, the evidence really   just the basic evidence, what you call ecological evidence Countrywide   consumption data. That data was contradicting his hypothesis.  

So Yeah. You know? And then there was other   Data that he used to try to support his hypothesis, and I I spent a long time just you know, I tell the whole story in here,   which is all the evidence that he used to support   His hypothesis,   human,   small feeding studies, a large study he did called the 7 country study, but none of it, And it was very, very weak evidence. And so when you go through it and you really dig into it, you realize that it was, it was Insufficient, really, to support his his ideas.  

[00:09:35] Unknown:

Right. And then so only from, 61,   Then the official advice came, okay. Now we really need to cut back on saturated fat and replace it with other things, including,   These, vegetable oils, including seed oils as well.   So what else got,   recommended as a replacement for the saturated fat.  

[00:09:58] Unknown:

Well,   You know, we could talk about the foods that replaced it, which is that when you're avoiding   foods containing saturated fat. Right? So you're taking   Instead of roast beef for dinner, instead of you know, what is at the center of the dinner plate? Instead of   meat,   which is what most People were eating at the time, including Ancel Keys himself who had roasts several times a week according to his own,   accounting.   You take away that,   main dish and what you replace it with in large part is carbohydrates. So you have Pastas   and you have, you know, that's the main replacement that you you find people taking away,   proteins and replacing them with carbohydrate.  

And in all countries,   that I have studied, which I can't make this as a blanket statement, carbohydrate but carbohydrate in Intake has increased dramatically.   I mean, in the United States, from 1970   until   The most recent measurements,   it increased by 25%,   the amount of carbohydrates that we eat. And virtually all of our increase in calories   It's all due to carbohydrate.   So we're talking bread, pasta,   potatoes,   rice,   grains. You know, mainly, it's grains that we're talking about that has replaced these,   foods   that contain   protein and   Right. And that has had a dramatic effect on health because,   I think as maybe your listeners know,   sounds like they've been educated, but but   carbohydrates   really drive when you every time you eat carbohydrate,   Regardless of whether it's a refined grain or a whole grain,   it will cause a spike in your blood sugar, and repeated frequent   Spikes in blood sugar over time will exhaust your body's ability, the pancreas, and its ability to   Respond to sugar,   with insulin, that will become exhausted over time to the point where You can no longer really process those sugars. That's called carbohydrate intolerance, and that's pretty much synonymous with type 2 diabetes.  

It also leads to obesity in all of these various chronic diseases that we see rising   right along with our carbohydrate consumption.  

[00:12:22] Unknown:

Right. Yeah. And then you get, insulin resistance and inflammation from that and all the problems associated with that as well.   So that's why carbohydrates or at least a higher,   amount of carbohydrates and also bad carbohydrates like, you know, quick acting things like sugar,   bread,   and all the things that are in processed food are bad.   And then why are,   seed oils and vegetable oils so bad?  

[00:12:49] Unknown:

Or are they bad? Yes. So that's a really,   really good question.   And,   and   There's some difference of opinion on this. Right? I think there are a number of of people who are out there saying seed oils is the cause of   All disease.   And so I wanna be very specific because, actually, I did the original   research on Seed oil. I think I actually coined the word seed oils. Okay.   And I and and I did the all the original research on how they entered into our food and what they're you know, they they the fact that they were used for the industrial revolution to,   to,   as emollients for machinery before they became human food items.  

Yeah.   So there there's very only tentative   data supporting the idea that seed oils cause obesity and diabetes. There are Hypotheses about it that could be true or could not be true. There's some mechanistic what we call mechanistic data. But overall, there's no clinical trial data,   And we can't   I do not think, at least. The evidence supports asserting that seed oils cause obesity and diabetes.   Where there are clinical trials,   these are large clinical trials on altogether some 76,000   people. So it's a huge   body of scientific research,   that was all done to try to test Ancel Keys'   Diet heart hypothesis. Right? What did they do in these experiments?  

They took saturated fat, and they replaced it with these seed oils. Right? They did this by,   you know, having soy filled milk and soy filled cheese and their version of the impossible burger, you know, they had   They replaced butter with margarine.   And,   in   nearly all of these trials, again, on a very substantial number of people,   What they found was that, or at least in half a dozen of these large trials,   the People who were eating more vegetable oils ended up dying at higher rates from cancer.   So this is clinical trial data, which is The most rigorous form of data that we have. Now is that the seed oils,   or   is it the fact that these people all lowered their cholesterol?  

Does lowering cholesterol   cause cancer? And I'm not sure that we   know the answer to that.   But it is definitely a very poor outcome   for a   heavy in seed oils.   And the other effect of seed oils that I discovered was that   when they are especially when they're heated,   which speeds up the process of Ex sedation.   Actually, let me just step back a little bit here and say that seed oils   are made up of,   fatty acids that Contain a lot of, what's called double bonds, but these are these are   molecular bonds that at any moment can open up and   attached to oxygen. That's called oxidation.  

Right?   We know about people have heard about antioxidants.   Yeah. Well, you are supposed to take antioxidants because   things are oxidizing in your food, and what oxidizes most   are these fatty acids, this type of fatty acid.   And they attach to oxidation and that so they attach to oxygen.   That is what drives inflammation.   Right? I'm sure your audience knows about inflammation. It drives many,   disease processes,   but most well known is heart disease.   So these oils, they will oxidize.   They will it leads to, like, literally hundreds of these,   oxidation products that come out of these fatty acids. The whole thing is sped up when you heat   the oils. Right? Use them in cooking.  

I mean, it happens even if the oils are just left on the counter,   especially if they're in a clear bottle and they're getting sunlight or just, and they they will oxidize over time. It's why, you know,   Nuts, which contain a lot of these fatty acids, will go rancid over time, so will your oils.   But when you heat them, like, you remember when you were Doing science as a maybe, like, in grade school, if you heat something, the reaction speeds up.   So heating them, cooking with them is especially dangerous.   And some of those oxidation products   are known toxins.  

So they're one of them is called acrylene.   That is the same substance that,   you ingest when you smoke cigarettes.   Another product is called Aldehydes,   which are known to cause cancer and cause heart disease.   And these are known, and it's been studied that these   Oxidation products, they wind up in your food if you fry them in oils.   These are studies that were done by a Michigan professor who actually sampled   fried foods in, like,   McDonald's and Burger Kings, and she found hundreds of these oxidation products.   She found out that they entered the body when you ate them.  

She found out that it would pass through the blood brain barrier and get into your brain.   So   this is not This is not an abstract idea. This is something that has been absolutely demonstrated to,   to occur in our in our food when we We cook things in vegetable oils. So what came out of all that research is this, you know, this idea that or recommendation, like, we really should not be We should probably not be consuming these unstable   oils, and we should certainly not be cooking with  

[00:18:33] Unknown:

Yeah.   And that is extremely concerning,   especially if you think about that. Basically, all foods that are in a package   Contain,   some sort of seed oils or vegetable oils. Right. Probably they have been,   already oxidized   as these things have been heavily processed or   been on the shelf for a long time. So these then contain these,   toxic   Things like aldehydes,   and they   might probably not be organic. So somebody probably sprayed some Roundup on there as well.   So Right. If you eat something from a   something   that is packaged,   it is like a double, triple whammy, including the sugar that's in there. It's horrible. And they don't have to disclose that the, you know, what the effects of this are. They can sell this to us.  



[00:19:24] Unknown:

Well, I think, you know, most people who start to reduce their packaged foods   because they don't wanna be eating grains, And so they really   you know, they're not eating cookies and crackers and cereals and and many of the source many of the Chips, potato chips, whatever. Those, they would they naturally reduce their source of seed oils.   But a couple of Hidden sources that probably people don't realize is that in prepared   salad dressings   Yeah. And prepared mayonnaise that you buy.   Even the mayonnaise that says it's made with olive oil will often contain soybean oil. So I don't know what it is in the Netherlands, but in in the US, soybean oil is the most common type of oil that is present. So you do have to be   Alert and really read food labels to know where you're getting these oils.  



[00:20:21] Unknown:

Yeah.  

[00:20:23] Unknown:

Unfortunately.  

[00:20:24] Unknown:

Yeah. So so let's let's move on to, another thing that's in your book. So,   and then with all of this,   Then we could, move on to a healthier diet, which is called in the Mediterranean   diet. Right? Because there, they We hate use olive oil and all these It's fun things.   Is that a solution maybe?  

[00:20:46] Unknown:

Well,   The Mediterranean diet probably has the greatest   health halo   of any diet that's out there. Yeah. And   And I spent a lot of time going into the origins of this diet. Where did it come from? Who suggested it? And it's An absolutely fascinating story, and and,   I think that my book is still the only place you can read this. This is not to promote My book. I mean but it's just to say, I I don't know any other place that where this study   is pulled where   it turns out that the Mediterranean diet as a concept   was developed by the,   the Italian olive oil council   that sorry, the European olive oil council that wanted to sell more olive oil, and they developed this idea of the Mediterranean diet. They invited   researchers   and writers, journalists,   Cooks, chefs, all these people too.  

Fantastic.   People describe as the best ever conferences that took place on, you know, Greek islands and in little   Italian beautiful   towns and   and   Sardinia and Sicily. And it was just this   Incredible,   you know, what we call a junket, which is, like, these wonderful free trips. And the deal was You would go back and you would promote the Mediterranean diet. It was just an unspoken   agreement. Yeah. Actually, quote a journalist talking about this saying, you know, we all knew we had to go back and write about the Mediterranean diet.   And it was also endorsed by,   a Harvard the Researchers at Harvard who picked this up and realized,   you know, I think they personally fell in love with the diet,   And then they also realized that it was a very viable concept for them to promote and market. They had their own Mediterranean diet pyramid.  

And so it was launched. I mean, it was launched as a concept.   It was and I should also mention, like, it was actually dearly beloved,   Genuinely   adored   by researchers in mainly in Italy and Spain   who   saw their traditional way of eating   fading   away and responded   in a way that I think is,   is really understandable, which is they they wanted to try to preserve something about   their way of eating. Yeah. Of course. Did this through   promoting this idea of the Mediterranean diet. But there really is and this is what's so curious.   There really is no one Mediterranean diet.  

You know, if there's the diet and it's certainly not,   ex, You know, excessive with high high vegetable, no meat diet. I mean, there's a great deal of meat in the Greek diet, and they eat Different kinds. They eat, you know, goat. That's very different than the meat they're eating in   France. And the amount of potatoes that they eat in Italy versus,   Sardinia or other places in the Mediterranean,   all of these foodstuffs   differ quite a lot,   from 1 country to the other. So It was always sort of a mythical idea that there was 1 Mediterranean   diet.  

And, yeah, and so there's just many stories about, you know, trying to force a definition on this diet that it really it really   it really wasn't 1 diet.   You know, for example, in the United States,   Our American style Mediterranean diet now has no olive oil,   which was considered a key component of the Mediterranean diet. But In the US,   we don't produce olive oil. So   our researchers,   you know, which are many of whom are just funded by   By industry,   they they decided they're gonna take olive oil out of the Mediterranean diet. So our Mediterranean diet, you know, recommends soybean oil. I mean, just imagine.  

[00:24:40] Unknown:

Okay.  

[00:24:41] Unknown:

Yeah. That's Okay. But getting to the health effects of the Mediterranean diet, which is really, I think, the essence for that somebody wants to know.   There is only 1   randomized controlled clinical trial, a large trial,   That shows   reductions in cardiovascular,   disease, right, which was, and that's a Trial that was done out of Spain, funded entirely by the industry,   which is not well known. But,   but what what did they see actually when you look at the outcomes was a Point 2,   risk reduction. A tiny, tiny risk reduction,   which this is what happens when they're marketing statins as well, which they sell that instead as a relative risk reduction, which means even a tiny change in risk can be marketed as, you know, well, that's a 50% reduction   From 1 you know, from   from 0.2 risk to 0.25   risk. That is a 50% difference, but it's still a tiny, tiny risk.  

So what the Mediterranean   in in large review systematic reviews of the science, you will find that the Mediterranean diet   does not perform as well as a low carbohydrate diet for,   for   weight loss. It doesn't show almost any weight loss on that diet. It does not   improve,   diabetes. It does not reverse diabetes, which is is possible on a very low carbohydrate diet. And its Cardiovascular   risk improvements are,   you know, are moderate, but not strong,   and it's comparable to a low carbohydrate diet. So I would say that it's   Although it's now been much studied, it really does not have the promise that we thought it would.  



[00:26:25] Unknown:

Yeah.   Yeah.   And,   maybe from, an American point of view, that is more well, harder to,   Imagine,   that there is so much difference within the area of the Mediterranean, like you already said. Right. So Italy is completely different than Spain, for instance,   entirely different country. And even within our tiny countries, we have incredible culture differences. So it's like here in the Netherlands. If I travel 30 minutes,   then I'm in a completely different part of the Netherlands where I barely can understand Ten people, and they actually eat different things as well. Right. So it's very hard to define   1 diet within such a Relatively large area.  



[00:27:06] Unknown:

Yeah. Absolutely.  

[00:27:08] Unknown:

And so,   you already alluded to it. What should people then eat? Is that a low carb diet? And and what does that look like?  

[00:27:17] Unknown:

Well,   I think, You know, one thing everybody can agree on is a real foods diet. And then the answer   the really the answer to that question   largely depends upon your state of health. I think it's a very important concept to understand   that there is no one size fits all diet.   People who have type 2 diabetes,   people who are who have obesity,   you know, aggressive heart disease,   Fatty,   nonalcoholic fatty liver syndrome,   polycystic   ovarian   syndrome. I mean, People who are sick and diagnosed with chronic disease, their   options   are more narrow for what they can eat. And, basically,   all those people, all those diseases which are   provoked or caused by insulin resistance,   All those people have to   restrict carbohydrates,   in order to start to reverse their disease process.  

And the good news is that, you know, according to numerous clinical trials, you can reverse a diagnosis of type 2 diabetes   in a matter of weeks. I mean, it's not a draconian,   process   for people to start reversing chronic disease.   It can happen in relatively short order, but it does mean that you're more restricted in what you can eat, and it may be   forever.   Like, it may you know, once your metabolism is broken, it's very hard to recover. Like, it's very hard for your pancreas to recover its It's functionality in producing insulin and for your cells to become more insulin sensitive again.   For people who are healthy and well,   They have more choice and a range of what they can eat they can eat. They can still eat,   greens and and   A variety of fruits, and they can, you know, they can range in what they eat.  

And it's just it's and I think   it's hard for people to understand this because   They think, why can't I just go back to eating what my grandmother ate? And she was healthy or my grandfather or they were healthy.   Yeah.   And   that is you know, those   ancestral diets   should   be alright for us, but we unfortunately,   we are now,   like, sick. We are no longer well, and we can't return to that way of eating. Like, there's no way that   I can go back to eating lots of bread and rice every day the way that my grandmother did,   and still,   you know, maintain my weight and be relatively healthy. So   it's very sad to say, but, you know, we have   lost those of us who have   Tipped over into ill health. We have lost our ability   to go back to ancient ways of eating.  

And that is a very hard concept, I think, for people to understand. I mean, they they think that we should just be able to return to those ancient ways. Those are our Original,   human customs,   but we we just aren't   we aren't the same Human beings anymore that we that we were a 100 years ago.  

[00:30:27] Unknown:

No. And I think there's there's different parts to that. So,   food stuffs changed. So if you talk about bread for instance, that's completely different thing than what it was a 100 years ago. It doesn't even look like it anymore. Here in the Netherlands,   They now are actually putting,   insect,   stuff in there. So it's completely different. Right.   So that's one thing. And I think,   our grandparents,   they had great guts. So they had   Absolutely great metabolism. So, you know, they were working outside. They had dirt on their hands.   They had a great microbiome.  

And I guess   Many of us,   didn't grow up with a good microbiome or got it tracked throughout our lives, including   Because of all the toxins in our environment, like Roundup, glyphosate, things like that, extremely toxic.   And I think once that goes, once your gut is Weaker,   then, you know, it's so much more difficult to go back to,   a diet like that if it would even exist With the foodstuffs that we have now. That's exactly true.  

[00:31:33] Unknown:

You know? And and and our grandparents grew up, they didn't they didn't even know   Cereal and orange juice for profit. No. I mean, I grew up eating something called   cocoa pebbles, which was just, like,   60% sugar.   And, you know, my mom didn't really I don't know what she was thinking. And nonfat milk. Like, I just didn't grow up. We didn't grow up developing our bodies in Yeah. Healthy ways. And so we   you know, it's very sad, but we just cannot compare ourselves to To get a solid foundation of health,   would have required us all having different childhoods than than we did,   growing up the way   we did with processed food in our lives on a daily basis.  



[00:32:17] Unknown:

Yeah. It's a it's a stats State of affairs. And, you know, our parents, they did the best,   that they, thought at the time. They didn't know any better. Especially, they didn't have, like, the Internet with shows like these back then.   It didn't exist.   So, you know, you can't blame them.   But now, Like, my my parents are in their seventies now, and they still do that. You know, they're they're low fat. They have their margarine.   You know, they they Watched the show, but they don't believe any of it. It's Yeah. They're they're I think people from that age, they're so stuck in their ways. It's not gonna change. The the the Well, my parents just breads so them. Yes. Even even your parents. So  

[00:32:59] Unknown:

My parents, I go home, and here I am a published author. I've given   you know, I speak all over the world. I've been invited to give testimony   front of multiple governments. I mean and I still go home, and there's the nonfat milk in their refrigerator, and there's their closet is full of. Their pantry is full of Oh my. Granola.   It's just and, you know, they basically they're in their eighties, so they just said, look, you know,   This is what we're eating, and we're not changing. But do they believe you?   So I think they do, but they basically feel like They're they feel pretty healthy, and they are   pretty healthy.  

And they eat a little bit more,   meat than they used to, but   But it's very hard to change   what they do.   You know, it's very hard to change that age.   And they, you know, they they're in their eighties, you know, and they're pretty healthy. So   Yeah. So they they grew up healthy, and now they have that Right. Sturdy backbone of health, and and they can they can handle it. And they never ate a lot of processed food. I mean, they were just never, you know, big people. They don't have cookies and things in their house, so I think that helps them stay well.   Yeah. But, you know, it is really hard to change. I think it really speaks to   How hard it is for people to understand   that   everything they've learned and are still learning   Could possibly be so wrong. I think that is a a kind of creates a kind of cognitive   dissonance that is   Extremely hard for people.  

Yeah. Even people who   successfully lose weight and   recover their health,   Changing their diet, you   know,   over to fewer grains and sugars   and more animal proteins, they Still, if they go to their doctor or somebody tells them that diet's gonna give you a heart attack, it will kill you. I mean, people are still very wobbly   in in trying to understand   what is healthy. And there are many   active scare tactics   out there trying to,   to scare people away from it, you know, by well funded campaigns,   by our Cardiologists who are funded by the pharmaceutical industry,   by our governments that are all invested in this particular diet, that are also, You know, in our case, at least, our you know, have many, many partnerships with industry.  

So   it's but still, I mean, these are our trusted authorities, and it's very hard for people. Paul, I understand this,   myself included. Very hard to think that they might all be wrong.  

[00:35:38] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. And it's not only the authorities, but it's also,   authorities online, like, you know, well known, doctors and and and health figures online.   As an example, instance, Peter Attia, I love that guy. You know, he's very well spoken. He is such a great, podcast and now book out as well. Would highly recommend that book. But he, for instance, he he definitely believes in the heart health hypothesis when you look at saturated fat. And in his case, he he talks about a bit more nuanced   We're instead of just,   cholesterol, it's, it's total amount of APOB over a lifetime exposure.  

So so what do you make of people like that?   Well,  

[00:36:21] Unknown:

you know, Pierre Atia got his start by working with Gary Taubes. Do you know who Gary Taubes right. So he they were working together. And,   I think Peter Attia knows very well the research on saturated fats,   And I think that he has shifted   away from his previous positions about saturated fats being healthy,   And that LDL cholesterol was not as much of a problem as as,   as we think   over to   a position that is more aligned   with,   expert opinion and and pharmaceutical interests. And,   I think, I don't know what his motives are, but I know that I do not think that they are supported by the evidence.   I I mean, I I've I mean, I should just say, like, I see very clearly in this field   people   wanting to align themselves more   with establishment   thinking   in order to be more successful,   Right? In order to have more I get the Because if you   remain true to,   your reading of the science that is Firmly in opposition to the establishment,   you do get punished. I mean, you are Yeah. I have literally been disinvited   from conferences,   And I have been my work has been intact even though it's been published in the top medical journals in the world,   And people have asked to, you know, retract my paper or go after corrections or,   you know, or   defame me and say that I'm a industry lobbyists, which for which there's absolutely zero   any evidence.  

So it is very there is an effort to make it very uncomfortable to Sit outside of mainstream scientist   science,   and I think there are people who adapt to that in order to participate more   In,  

[00:38:22] Unknown:

in kind of an influencer sphere. Yeah. Yeah. Which is kinda understandable. Right? If you wanna accomplish a certain goal, Like, help people in another way or or on a different thing, like Peter Tia's thing is longevity, for instance.   Right. You know, he couldn't do that otherwise. He would just be a fringe person otherwise. So, Yeah. There's something to that. I will tell you on longevity, which is something I was just thinking about earlier.  

[00:38:46] Unknown:

Do you know what the   Single greatest factor is that is associated with longer life.  

[00:38:52] Unknown:

Is it VO two max?  

[00:38:54] Unknown:

No.   It has nothing to do with exercise.   No. It is,   is your your ability to maintain muscle mass. Okay.   Or reversing that is the other way to say that is that loss of muscle mass, which is known as sarcopenia,   is the greatest   predictor   of early death.   How do you   how do you   Gain muscle?   It is   a little bit by exercise,   but it is mainly by eating protein.   And that protein has to be complete protein and include all the amino acids,   and those proteins are in animal foods. They're predominantly in animal foods.   Yeah.   So the only the, really, the only good,   plant protein that you can that that is complete is is soy.  

So,   but, you know, you have to eat animal foods in order to maintain your muscle mass so you don't become, like, this kind of person,   And,   and you have to eat animal proteins.   And therefore   and those animal proteins contain saturated fat, most of them or many of them. So you really cannot fear   saturated fat, which I I should have mentioned the other conclusion of these clinical trials on these 76,000   people.   They   collectively   did not show that   people eating more saturated fats, Like, up to 18% of calories is saturated fats. Those people did not   it did not increase their cardiovascular mortality.  

It did not increase their total mortality.   They had   same cardiovascular   health as people who were eating the vegetable oils. Yeah. So that is   The diet heart hypothesis   is the most tested nutrition hypothesis   in the history   of nutrition,   Maybe with the exception of low fat diet, but diet verb hypothesis has been   amply   tested in clinical trials, the most rigorous kind of science,   And that his the effects,   the outcome, it does not support the idea that saturated fat causes heart disease.   Yeah.   So no results.   So and that you know, what I am saying to you now is something that has been confirmed and published   In more than 20 systematic   analyses   and,   systematic reviews and meta analyses, including a very important paper in the American Journal   Cardiology, which is the journal for cardiologists,   which was,   it was a paper that was That included members of the our dietary guideline advisory committee, so people who had written the guidelines saying we've we've got this wrong. The evidence really does not support   Numeric   caps on saturated fats.  



[00:41:43] Unknown:

So so that brings me then to you know, the book came out in 2014.   Right? Yep. That's   9 years ago,   probably.   Almost.   So has have things changed for the better  

[00:41:57] Unknown:

Since your book came out? Well, yes. I mean, one thing that I think my book   did cause,   was these Twenty papers that I just talked about Mhmm. Were largely came about because scientists   read my book.   Many of them contacted me and said, you know, I can't believe this. I'm gonna research this for myself, and so they did. And so these these 20 Plus papers by independent teams of scientists all over the world   have have come to agree with this,   you know, what I set forth about saturated fats. So, I mean, I think my book   did cause this sea change in understanding about saturated fats. And where we stand now is that   All these review papers and all this new thinking of saturated fats of the past decade has yet to, like, rise up to the level of policymakers who continue to ignore it,   but the science is there.  

So, like, the next step is to try to really push it to get,   recognized,   by policymakers.   But I think that's been an enormous change. And also the The awareness of seed oils is also something that came out of my book. I mean,   there's,   entire   websites and communities that are aware of seed oils now, and and that was really   something that's happened in the last 10 years since I wrote about that.   So that feels good.   Yeah.   And,   you know, I think slowly, we're starting to see some policymakers   Recognizing,   the problems with ultra processed foods. There's a greater recognition of sugar. And then the other really positive thing, and this is   Not just my work, but also the work of Gary Taubes, another journalist, and and some researchers   that I won't name them all. But   The recognition   the the the enormous amount of science that has come out on the low carbohydrate or ketogenic diet. Yeah.  

And benefits for health. I mean, if you search those   terms in the,   You know, the database of scientific studies,   you come out with,   you know,   1500   Papers just on clinical trials.   Clinical trials, which is, you know, a hard kind of research to do where you actually feed people, change their dietary habits.   So there's just a tremendous amount of research now on this approach,   which, again, you don't hear about it   much In the media, you don't hear about it from policymakers, but it's happening. And it really is sweeping the scientific world in a way that I think will,   we will, you know, we'll continue, and I think it'll eventually, we'll see change.  



[00:44:40] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. If not from the top, then from the bottom.   And I think,   anecdotally,   many people also are seeing the benefits of a low carb diet and,   To stop fearing fat, and you see it a lot on the social media,   especially on Twitter now as well.   People Are on low carb diets, are on keto diets, are on carnivore diets, and they are seeing lots and lots of benefits.   All anecdotal, of course, but still, you know, That that word gets around and then people start looking into things and start reading books like yours, for instance. And then get Well, and the science  

[00:45:16] Unknown:

The science supports it, and there have been changes in, like, the European   one of the European diabetes associations   has actually recognized   the benefits of a low carb or ketogenic diet. There have actually been changes in the position papers. The American Diabetes Association   recognizes   The ketogenic diet is being the best for controlling blood sugar.   Wow. Our American Heart Association,   which, you know, has   Long been hostile to low carb, but even when they hire asked their scientific team to look at low carbohydrate diets for diabetes,   They were they were forced to conclude, although they didn't really make a big announcement about it, but that low carbohydrate diets for the for diet people with diabetes was the for weight   loss and also the best for certain heart disease outcomes, including   HDL cholesterol, which is the so called good cholesterol, and triglycerides,   which are fatty acids circulating circulating in the blood and and come about due to your carbohydrate consumption. Yeah. So we're seeing actually official   Shift shifts in some of the official   societies   professional societies out there   because the science is strong.  

Yeah. So   Yeah. The science people to know that. You know? They this is backed by, like, a   Really substantial amount of science.  

[00:46:37] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, that's only growing, and that's, that's a very positive thing.   And, you know, although policy might not change, as such because of, you know, corruption, things like that.   As, Belinda Fettke also talked about a couple episodes ago.   You know, church and beliefs and things like that.   All those crazy things.   Yeah.   From the bottom, this can still work.  

[00:47:03] Unknown:

Yes. And I, you know, I I founded a group called the Nutrition Coalition,   which is at Nutrition Coalition dot US,   and that is a website.   That's a group, and and it's on our website.   It shows like, one of the things that we've been able to do is   show some of the   the industry influence and the corporate conflicts of interest. And, you know, we show all the companies that are involved in influencing   our nutrition policy, or,   we,   We're able to do a paper that for the 1st time looked at all the conflicts of interest on   our expert committee that reviews the science for the guidelines, this So called dietary guideline advisory committee,   95%   of that committee had a tie to the food or pharmaceutical   industry.  

More than 50% of the committee members had   20 such ties or more.   Yeah. So   we're we have been able to to push forward and document   the many problems in our nutrition policy,   and we're the 1st group really in the world to do that.   So I think that's important work, that should be happening really   all over the world.   But everybody has their own health journey to go through first. So  

[00:48:19] Unknown:

Yeah. Definitely. Okay.   So let let's end on that, very positive note.   And, apart from that, where can people go to find you?  

[00:48:31] Unknown:

So,   you can go I am at Nina Teichl's .com,   and there's,   some of the work that I've done, articles, and other things other than my in my book, but some of my appearances.   Nutrition Coalition dot US has a wealth of information on nutrition policy   and corporate influence. And if That whole world interests you. I think, that's a good place to go.   And then I don't know if your readers will know about Substack, But I have a column on Substack called unsettled science   Yeah. Where I'm writing about food, politics,   and some of the forces that are that affect our nutrition.  

And it just helps people understand, I think, if they, you know, they See the headlines. They don't understand why there's so much flip the you know, the news is flip flopping. And it's just I'm just trying to Pull back the curtain a little bit to help people   understand what are the forces that are acting behind our nutrition   science and news.   Why is this so why is it so hard to get straightforward answers? And I   hopefully, I can I can reveal some of that for people?  

[00:49:40] Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. I think you're doing a great job with Ted. So,   I would encourage people to, check all that out. That will be in the show notes under this, the audio or video file wherever you consume this.   And thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today.  

[00:49:56] Unknown:

Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to talk to you.   Alright.  

[00:50:01] Unknown:

Thank you for spending time with me to learn about health and wellness.   For the full transcript and more content, visit improvingberry.com.   That is improvingb   a, double r, y.com.   And here is a disclaimer.   The information in this podcast is for general informational purposes only   and does not constitute the practice of medicine,   nursing, or other professional health care services,   including the giving of medical advice   And no doctor patient relationship is formed.   The use of information in this podcast is at the user's own risk. The content of this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice,   diagnosis, or treatment.  

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